Narcissism, Gaslighting and Learning to Set Healthy Boundaries with Dana Skaags

Clinical Psychologist and Licensed Psychotherapist Dana Skaags breaks down gaslighting and narcissism traits and behavior patterns along with the major differences of both. She also shares how to not only survive but thrive after experiencing these trauma filled relationships.

Dana has a master’s degree in clinical psychology and is a licensed psychotherapist.  She has been in private practice for 14 years specializing in anxiety and adjustment issues along with trauma work.  She is a board member for the Intermountain Psychological Associationand is a frequent guest on WJHL Daytime Tri-Cities discussing how to navigate the emotional terrain of everyday problem and the host of Phoenix and Flames podcast.

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Transcript

0:59

Welcome to empowered within a soul clenching transformational podcast that will set your soul on fire through candid and inspiring conversations. Leading experts, celebrities, healers, and I share our journeys of how we've overcome challenges to living an empowered life from within I'm your host, Jennifer Pilates. Welcome to another episode of empowered within. Hi there and welcome to the show. Today's guest is Dana S Scags. Dana is a licensed psychotherapist with a degree in clinical psychology. She has been in private practice for 14 years. Specializing in anxiety and adjustment issues. Along with trauma work, she is a board member of the Intermountain psychological association and a frequent guest on w JHL daytime. Tri-Cities discussing how to navigate the emotional terrain of everyday problems, as well as the host of Phoenix in flames podcast. Welcome to the show, Dana. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. Yes, it's so great to connect with you again, since I had the opportunity in honor of being a guest on your podcast a few months ago, you did, it was wonderful. I so enjoyed that we had so much fun, so everyone will have to hop over to Phoenix in flame, check it out and get all the little gemstones that were going that day. and we have plenty more to bring today through Dana for sure. So let's dive right in and tell me for those that don't necessarily know or are very afraid of the word psychotherapist. What is it? And how did you decide that that's what you were gonna be. Oh, wonderful questions. So a psychotherapist is kind of a general term for you. You, it can be like a psychologist, someone in, uh, social work, someone in psychology. It's basically someone that you go to when you're having issues. Uh, emotionally. You're having issues with how to navigate your thoughts and your feelings and your behavior and, and how to do that. And so I think personally, I know I'm terribly biased, but I think everybody should have a psychotherapist. If you should have someone that you go to to help you work out those scary and unexpected terrains of life to just kind of sit down in a place that is confidential. So that's very important because sometimes we have to share things that we don't really even want our close friends and family to know. Mm-hmm sometimes because it's about them and sometimes we're scared of. Saying certain things for fear of how they might respond or they might be upset for us. And so then we're thinking more about their feelings than our own. So the confidentiality is huge. And along with that, it's, non-judgmental, you have a place to go where you can be so super honest with exactly what you're thinking exactly what you're feeling exactly what you've done or not done. And there is no judgment. There's just a listening and a processing. Okay. That's interesting. Why do you think you did that? Or why do you think you're having that line of thought and just kind of processing that through? So to get to the second part of your question, um, now this is kind of interesting because I started out in physical therapy. I wasn't a physical therapist. I was in the line to become one at school. That was my major. Well, I quickly figured out that is not for me, science and me. We don't get along. I mean, I, I joke that I could walk past the science building on campus and just smelling the formaldehyde, coming out of the doors. My GPA starts dropping. I just can't. I can't, I don't like it. So I figured out that psychology was a better fit for me. Um, And there's, there's more to that. If you want me to kind of go in any deeper with that, there's more reasoning. Yeah. I would love to hear the deep reasoning. Of course, that's what we're here for. Well, uh, and this is something I'm still trying to, um, come up with comfort with, uh, talking about, uh, basically my mother and I, uh, don't have a good relat. and we haven't for a really long time, and it's not easy to explain it's it would take so long, but because of being in that environment, I sort of had to figure things out to get ahead of it. I had looking back now, I feel like I had the mentality that if I could just break it down into pieces and figure out what was going to happen before it happened. then I could keep myself safe. But what I didn't realize was all those decades of doing that was sort of teaching me how to help other people break down their pieces of what they're doing and what is motivating them to behave the way that they are, and then building them back in a stronger, healthier way. So when I ended up switching my major to psychology, it was just a hand and a glove. It was to, to me, it was like somebody came up and said, you spell KA C a T I'm I'm nodding my head, like, yes. it was, it was just the way that I thought by then. So it was very easy to slide right into that. That's incredible. And you just have so much knowledge behind you. I don't wanna leave anything off the table today. And so one of the things that I wanted to also dive into first and talk. A couple of words that have been used quite a lot lately gas lighting, narcissists manipulation, like let's talk about those words and those categories. And I don't know if you will call them. Identities or characteristics, because I know it just depends on, on who you talk to, how they decipher those things. But I think it's important to know because they, really, those words are getting thrown around so much. Mm-hmm And I think sometimes with validity and then sometimes I think it's just like, oh my gosh, they're a narcissist like, oh geez, help us decipher so that we can be in a healthy space with those words, because we don't wanna have judgment for others. And if we do, we wanna understand it and then navigate, and then we'll get into boundaries and all that good stuff. Okay. That sounds wonderful. And you're so right. Um, so Jennifer. Basically we can observe someone's behavior and we can set boundaries without judging someone. We have the right to acknowledge how someone's behavior patterns are impacting us and set appropriate boundaries without judging the other person. But we, we need to observe. We need to observe what they're doing and not keep turning a blind eye. So manipulator is of the three words that you mentioned a narciss system, manipulator, gas lighter. So manipulator would be the one that is the overarching, um, heading over all of those and to just take that word and make it a little bit more benign, in some sense, we all can be manipulators. Um, to the, I mean, a simple point would be, let's say you wanna go to a certain restaurant. And so you start talking to your friends about, you know, aren't you really, haven't you been craving some Mexican lately, you know, are, are you missing such and such restaurant? And how long has it been since you've been there? And so we're trying to kind. Grease the skids, so that everybody's gonna want to go to the restaurant that we're dying to go to. That is a very benign form of manipulation that we all do. You see children manipulating their parents because they want a candy bar or they want to go to the playground or something like that. It's a natural form of trying to get our needs met. Now manipulation can be twisted in an unhealthy way. And when you do that, that's when you get into areas like narcissism and gas lighting. So gas lighting is the heavy hitter. So I'm gonna leave that till last. So a narcissist basically is someone that the only thing that they're actually concerned about is themselves. Now they may or may not even realize this about themselves. They may know it, or they may have no self awareness that they're behaving in a narcissistic manner. What they will do is they view other people as a means of getting their needs met. So they tend to view other people like tools. They don't really see other people as individuals with their own needs and their own points of view. They tend to view other people like tools. And when someone, when one of these people is not meeting the narcissist need, then the narcissist will view that person a lot. Like you might view a, a tool that's malfunctioning, that's not working right. You know, you might take the tool and you might bang it on the side of the counter a couple times you might try to unplug it, plug it back in. You're wanting it to do a certain thing and it's not. And so you get frustrated with that tool. A narcissist is always thinking about what they want. And so if you do what they want, let's say you happen to be in a relationship with the narciss system. You don't realize it well, as long as everything's going along their way. then that's not a problem. I mean, you won't realize it's a narcissist because everything's going their way. Once you start realizing it is when you start to express your own opinion, that may be different from the narcissist opinion. So then when that happens, they get upset. and they get angry. They don't like it. When you set a boundary, they don't like it. When you express your opinion when it's different from theirs. So they will argue, they will maybe become emotionally, verbally, or sometimes physically abusive. Trying to get what they want. It's all about what they want. And in the end, if you continue to set your healthy boundaries, then ironically, and I've been through this. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't been through it myself, but they will accuse you of doing the very things that they are doing. and you're like, and you're listening to them going, do you even hear yourself? I, I, I swear. I would not have believed it, but it happened to me. And the whole time this, the person is talking to me, I'm thinking, are you serious? You are telling me that I'm doing, that's exactly what you are doing, but they do not see it. And you can't make them. You absolutely cannot make them see it now, a gas lighter. Is another category. So do you want me to kind of pause here or do you want me to go right into gas lighting? Well, a little bit. Yeah, because I think that people then have, cuz I I'm thinking of people that I know or people that have talked to me about other people and they'll be like, you know, this narcissist is, is gas lighting me. And so I I've always thought there's. Overlap between all of the three that you're speaking of. So yeah, I can't wait to hear how it goes into the gas lighting. Oh, there's definitely an overlap there. There's but it's in, uh, it's gradations. So you have the manipulation, which is kind of overarching and you have a narcissist that kind of grades into a gas lighter, a narcissist doesn't have to be a gas lighter. you can be in a relationship with someone who's a narcissist, but they won't necessarily be a gas lighter, but all gas sliders are narcissists. Does that make sense? Makes complete sense. Ooh. Okay. Yeah, go with that. Okay. So a gas lighter, they are very interested in making you doubt yourself. when you, if you manage to survive a relationship with a gas lighter, then what, what comes out is you doubt yourself. You second, guess yourself all the time, you feel like you can't even hardly make a decision because in the relationship with the gas lighter, when you try to express an opinion, they're, they're saying, no, it's not. And you're, you're like, That's my opinion, you know, I have a right to it and they're like, no, you don't, that's not, that's not accurate. And so anything that anytime you try to stand firm in your own truth, they come against you and tell you, no, you're wrong. And even though you can be Stan, I'm telling you, you can be standing there knowing that God's honest truth, that this you're right. And they will, they'll say you're wrong. And strikingly enough, if you're in the relationship with the Gaslight long enough, you will start to believe them, even though you know that what you're saying is correct, they're saying it's not. And so then you start wondering, well, maybe I'm wrong because they're very vociferous and they are very determined about what they want and what they don't want. Mm-hmm and what they don't want is you feeling. Um, any kind of confidence and they'll also try to kind of call you away. A narcissist will do this as well. They will call you away from people in your life who are supportive of you. They don't want anyone around you who will lift you up, who will encourage you? Who will say, girl, you got this, you keep going. You're gonna get it. You're on the right. They don't want anyone like that around you. And again, a, a narcissist may be doing that on purpose, or they may do be doing it subconsciously gas sliders. It's gonna be conscious. They know what they're doing. They're doing it on purpose gas. Sliders can be, can be dangerous. Um, They can and narcissist can as well, depending on, you know, it's all on a spectrum. Okay. You've got mild, moderate, severe. They can at times go around you and tell lies about you, to your friends and family, to create a friction so that your friends and family will believe that you said, or did something negative toward them that you did not say, or you did not do. but they think you did. And so then now they're acting towards you. Like they're detaching from you, they're acting negative towards you and you don't know why, and you try to engage them in conversation about it. And most of the time they, they don't wanna talk about it because the narcissist slash gas lighter is going to be Ash. Gaslight is going behind you and stirring up all of this. All of these lies. That you don't even know you can't defend yourself because you don't know what's going on. All you know is your friends and family are looking at scans at you. They're not making as much eye contact as they used to. They're pulling away. They're not inviting you to things like they used to. You don't know why, then you're feeling isolated. You're feeling confused. Your confidence is coming down. Your self esteem is coming down. Your need for connection is going up and who's standing right there to meet your need for connection, the gas lighter. And then he, or she will then begin to tell you what you think. Um, it's not an, not unusual for me to have a, a patient who has been in a relationship with a gas lighter type individual. And I will ask them something like what their thoughts or feelings are. And they just sit and stare at me. Like they don't like it does not compute. they don't know what their own thoughts or their feelings are. They don't know their preferences as simple, as simple as something as simple as what is your favorite ice cream? And I'm not kidding you. I just get this blank stare. They don't know what their favorite ice cream is because for sometimes years they've been in a relationship with this person who has told them what to wear, told them where to go. Told them how to speak when to speak, who to speak, to told them what their favorite ice cream flavor was and on and on and on until the whole entirety of who they are as an individual gets drained out. And the relationship is all about the narcissist and the gas lighter mm-hmm And do you feel that this can happen? in families in love relationships, perhaps society, perhaps media, because what I'm hearing you say is that the general population has it wrong. More of the gas lighting is going on. That's overlapping with the narcissist versus people just throwing around that word. Narcissist narcissist is a very popular term. um, and it's in its purest form. A narcissist, like I said, is basically, they're just concerned about themselves. And so I think sometimes when people are throwing that, that term around, they're thinking more on the mild end, but there is a moderate and a severe as with just about any term you want to use to describe humans, it's on a spectrum. So you could be in a relationship with family, with friends, um, and have that individual be rather narcissistic, which means when topics come up, where decisions have to be made, then they are almost always self-absorbed. It's what they want to do. They're angling to get what they want. They're not particularly concerned about your needs or what you want. And if you try to express. An opinion, opposing theirs. They don't like it. You get met with conflict and it, but if you keep going with someone like this and the relationship gets more and more tilted toward the narcissist, then, like I said, it can turn into gas lighting. And you kind of lose who you are, which is what they want, right. Because that's the narcissist dream to have a relationship where the other person doesn't have an identity. It's all about them. Mm-hmm absolutely. So in moving to how does one set a healthy boundary versus a dysfunctional. okay. So first of all, let me say that if you are in a relationship with someone who's emotionally healthy, then you don't really think about boundaries because they're just naturally being respected. It's a lot like you don't walk around every day, thinking about your throat. It's there, but you don't think about your throat every day, but if you get strep throat, then you're thinking about your throat quite a bit. Because it's hurting because something's wrong with it. Boundaries function much the same way. If you're in a relationship with someone, whether it's a family friend, a romantic interest, a coworker, whoever, and it's a healthy relationship emotionally, then you don't think about boundaries. You naturally respect theirs. They naturally respect yours. No harm, no foul. It's when there's an unhealthy. Um, Thread in there that there's a problem. So let me give you an example, um, like someone at work. So let's say there was a, a woman at her job and she worked with another, say another lady and this other lady had a habit of sort of being, we'll say. Not very industrious during the day. Maybe she was on her phone more than she should have been or doing whatever she liked to talk a lot. She liked to take breaks. So what happens is at the end of the day, the other woman, uh, will say woman B, she ended up with a pile of work that should have been done. Well, she knows she's gonna get in trouble. If she doesn't get it done, but she chose to do other things during the day. So then she turns around and looks at woman B, who happens to be right behind her in the little cubicle area. And she looks at woman a and she says, um, would you mind helping me with some of my work? I've just been so busy today and I haven't had time. And if I don't get it done, I'm gonna get in a lot of trouble tomorrow. So could you help me? so at first woman a will say, sure, that's no problem. You know, we wanna be kind, we wanna be giving we've had those days where we're overwhelmed, let me help you out. So this goes on and on and on day after day, week after week until woman B, she is used to handing a stack of work of hers. that she could have gotten done, but she did not because she chose to do other things during the day, rather than her job. So woman B is used to handing all of her work over to woman a because woman a has now taught her that she would do that. So this is an example of how unhealthy boundaries begin. So woman B is choosing to spend her time in. Non-productive ways. And so she ends up with a natural consequence of having too much work to do well when she looks over to her cohort woman, a dumps it on her, but woman a accepts it. We have to point this out woman a says, sure. I'll help you now. Is it okay to do random acts of kindness for people? Absolutely. That's wonderful. We should be reaching out and helping people out. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the pattern. So when woman a continues day after day, week after week to accept this overload of work from woman B, then she's now taught her that she's going to do that. So woman a now is very, very frustrated. She's resentful. She's bitter at woman B. She doesn't like coming to work. She fusses and gripes about it all the time. So do you see how that, that boundary on both sides is dysfunctional? Yes, very much so. And I love that you're pointing out that the key is, is that woman a accepted this. She taught the other woman that this is okay. Mm-hmm so the only person that she can be mad at is looking in the mirror herself. because she actually created the dynamic. Yes. And really just kind of looking and observing her behavior. And I'm really big on just observing instead of judging her own behavior. Because if we judge ourselves, then we start what I call jumping in the shame shower, and it just goes nowhere. Good. But if woman a observes, look, this is what I've done. Now, here's the thing. Let's give you two examples. Number one, this is an example of woman, a being kind, but not continuing the pattern. So let's say on Monday, woman B gives woman a say here, can you help me out with this work? Now, woman a probably knows that woman B. Could have gotten that work done if she'd made better choices during the day, but she's like, whatever, I'm gonna help out. I've got some time I'll do it Tuesday. The same thing happens. So then woman a says, you know, I don't think I'm going to do that. I'm sorry you have that much work left over, but I'm gonna leave now. And then she just locks up her desk and she says, I hope you have a good rest of your evening. And she walks out the. at that point. It's not that huge of a deal because a pattern has not been established, but woman a has essentially educated woman B if you want someone that you can take advantage of to dump your stuff on that you haven't done during the day, I'm not your chick. You know, I'm not the woman to do that with. Okay. Now situation B is when this pattern has gone on and on and on. these are usually when I get the patient in the office. woman, a always shows up in my office, never woman B, because woman B, she doesn't have a problem. She's dumped her problems on woman, a. Right. So woman B has no problems, woman a is the one with the problems. She's the one that ends up in the therapist's office going, oh my gosh, what in the world am I supposed to do? So woman a knows at this point, if she says no, if she sets a boundary, then woman B is going to get angry. This is true. Okay. But part of boundaries is understanding that woman B's emotions do not belong to woman. Woman a is not responsible for woman B's anger. Okay. So you have to really coach woman a, because she's gonna be terrified. But she can say, let's say it's a Tuesday. And once again, woman B dump, she's walking over. It's about 4 45. She's doing her walk of her thinking. She's gonna dump all her stuff on woman, a woman, a can say, if she's been doing this for weeks and weeks, now she can say to her comrade there, you know, I'm happy to do this for you for the rest of this week. And then I'm not going to do it anymore. So she can acknowledge that she participated in this and she can give a timeframe and she can say, I'm gonna stop doing it at this point. So then that's gonna give woman B time to try to find another person to dump it all on. And she's been given notice. Now having said that, do you think woman B is going to believe. That woman a is actually going to stop doing it. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. She will not. That's why the behavior has got to communicate the message. You can use your words and the words are good because you're letting the person know this is getting ready to change, but they're not going to believe you, your behavior has to train them. Your behavior has to show them that you really mean it. So let's say she does it Wednesday through Friday. Then she reminds woman B as she's walking out the door at the end of the day. Now, remember, I'm not gonna do your extra work beginning Monday. And so woman B is gonna say, oh, sure, sure. I know. I'm so sorry. I took advantage of you. No problem. But then Monday rolls around 4 45 comes. What is woman B going to do? Oh, she's hand not work over. She's handing it over. Woman a has to do what she has to set a healthy boundary. Yes, she has to say, I'm not going to accept the work now. Here's, here's something that's very important. People that aren't used to setting boundaries. Think they have to get confrontational. They think they have to get very loud and participate in some kind of an argument. And that scares them to. Generally people that get taken advantage of in these situations, uh, don't have the kind of personality that's comfortable with confrontation. You need to understand setting boundaries is by no means confrontational. Actually the calmest, most peaceful people I know are very good boundary setters woman. A simply has to say, I'm not gonna take the work and say, I hope you have a wonderful day. I'll see you tomorrow. And then walk off. Now woman B is gonna start, she's gonna start kicking up a kerfuffle because she didn't believe woman a, she didn't find anybody else. Well, she's not doing her work like she's supposed to, and she's shuffled her natural consequences off on a woman a for weeks and weeks and weeks now, maybe even months. So she's gonna start to argue. Now here's an important thing. When you think about the difference between the content of what someone says versus their intent. So when woman B starts to kick up a big kerfuffle about it, what is her intent? Her intent is to shut down woman. A exactly. Her intent is to shut down woman a to get woman a, to do the work again like she was doing before woman a does not have to participate in that at all. She doesn't have to even answer. She doesn't have to get loud. She certainly doesn't need to start arguing back with woman. She's already explained to her. I'm not gonna do that past this week. So when woman B brings her work back again, woman a says, I'm not gonna do your work anymore. I hope you have a good rest of your evening and walk out woman a can do that. It does not require yelling. It does not require arguing. It does not require being confrontational. And you have a nice word. I hope you have a good rest of your evening. Then you walk out the door and you have to do that. every single day for probably two weeks, because woman B is gonna be trying to do what for days to come. Oh, manipulate the whole thing. Yeah. She's gonna be trying to get woman a, to go back. So this sounds slightly easier to do in the workplace for listeners that are going well. That's great in the workplace. I can handle Betty Lou, but at home. whether it's the husband or the mom or the dad or the whatever, aunt, uncle whomever, mm-hmm what tips or suggestions can you give? Because we know it goes on and we know that these things happen. What healthy tips can you give that may able to skirt across those different areas? Yes. That's a very, very good point. Um, and I started with the work because that's like you said, that's the easiest, right? We can, but it was kind of place incredible way that anyone listening to this could be like, oh my God, that's my husband. Oh my God, that's my sister. Oh my, it was a beautiful place to start. And now I just wanna help those that go. But how am I supposed to get up off and walk away from the dinner table? Or how am I supposed to go into my home? Or how do I get out of this? you know, and, and, you know, we don't have any details, but there's gonna be a couple of healthy, just like maybe three healthy tips to say, you know what? Here's a great way to start get comfortable within yourself so that you realize it's not confrontational. Yes. Okay. So let me say, first of all, that, if someone is in a situation where violence is possible, then they need to get. Help they need to reach out to, um, whether it's their, their someone, one person that they feel that they can trust, possibly getting the law involved, getting police involved, getting a safe place to go to because we have to admit these situations happen. And they're very scary. So in those situations, if, if you have a listener who's in that kind of a situation, you're like, you know, if I try to set boundaries, I'm gonna. Hit I'm gonna get beaten. Then that person needs to try to reach out to someone. They just need one person that they can try to connect up with a safe place. They can go where they can contact the authorities and they can kind of have that disconnection there. Just reach out to some community resources. So having, having said that, the rest of what I'm gonna talk about does not include someone who's in physical danger. So basically when you're dealing with family, what happens a lot of times is we own other people's feelings. So what I talk about in my podcast, especially the first four episodes, I explain a lot about what boundaries mean, and then I kind of apply it at different places along the way. But if you imagine a yard and in your yard, are your thoughts, your feelings and your actions. And you have neighbors around you and in their yards are their thoughts, their feelings and their actions. So it's important to understand, right? From the beginning that someone else's thoughts and feelings and actions don't belong to you, that's deep. Okay. That's deep. It it's very important. It's very basic, but it has to start there. So when you have a family member, who's very mad at you for something. Their anger belongs to them. You did not create their anger. Sometimes we make people's emotions about ourselves. We personalize it. It's about me. Somebody can be angry with you. They can be talking to you. They can be talking about you, but their anger is not yours to manage. There's um, a, a saying that's in, it grew up kind of in the, was born in the, uh, addiction community, but it's basically three CS. You did not cause whatever's going on there. Whatever's in the other person's yard. Meaning their thoughts, their feelings, their actions. You did not cause that you cannot control it and you are not responsible for curing it. Now, if they have an issue. They can go see a therapist. They can go see someone to work out their issues. Their issues are not yours to solve or own. Now, what is yours are your thoughts, your feelings and your actions. So let's say something happens and I call these boomerang issues. Like you're interacting with someone and you try to shake it off because you know, you can't be, you can't be like making everything a big. You know, ain't nobody got time for that. Know what I'm saying? Just try to shake stuff off. But if something keeps boomeranging back to you in the form of intrusive thoughts, I call that a boomerang issue. So if you walk out into your yard and there's a boomerang in your grass, that means that you have to pick it up. You need to a attach words to it, walk across your yard, to the fence line of whichever neighbor you have this boomerang issue with and engage them in a conversation about it. Now here's the thing. People will say, Dana, well, that sounds fine. But my neighbor, my, my dad, my, my husband, my sister, my friend, whoever, they're not gonna like what I have to say, and they're gonna get really mad at me. And my answer to that is yes. And their anger is not your issue. Now that doesn't mean it's comfortable. Okay. But you are in charge of your feelings. And if you let a bunch of boomerang issues build up inside of you, then when you finally let them all out, you will not be able to control it and that's on you. So it's better to address things as they come along. So if you walk across your yard and you're leaning against a fence line and you're, you're expressing to the other person, something they did or said the other day, that really hurt your feelings or whatever. And by the way, I'm gonna talk about that. Hurting my feelings in just a second, cuz that's not even, they did something and you responded with hurt. There's a disconnect there. We frequently say you made me mad. That's not really even possible because my anger is in my. So, what happens is you did something and I reacted with anger. So that's important to remember. So when you're talking to someone, if your feelings are hurt, that's because that hurt is inside of you, but they did something. They said something and that's worth discussing. So all you can do is attach words to it because no one is responsible for reading your mind. And you can't read someone else's mind. So if you have something that keeps in intruding into your mind, like a boomerang issue, it's your responsibility to walk across the yard, lean against the fence and open up conversation, tell them what you're thinking, tell them what you're feeling, tell them what your reaction was to what they said or did now, how they receive what you say and how they respond back to what you say. Has nothing to do with you. That doesn't mean it's comfortable, but you are not responsible for those things. And that's very, very important because that's one of the main reasons why we don't open up conversation with people because, oh, they're gonna get mad. They're they're not gonna like what I'm having to say. Well, you're probably right. And okay. No, they're not gonna like it. and this is well, they're gonna, this is incredibly empowering. I don't think I have ever in my 40 some years I'll leave it. There have ever been told that you being mad the way that you have explained it. Mm-hmm I mean, I think we need to put you on every channel in the world right now and just have this on. Repeat that someone else being bad. That's on them. That's not on you, regardless of, you know, maybe what you're saying or what you're doing. And hopefully you're not being a Dodo head, but like that's still their reaction that to being triggered to something else that probably has nothing to do with what you said. But it's something that got triggered from when they were five or six years old. That is so IPA. And you hear this word too, a lot. Triggers, triggers, triggers, everyone's triggers. Everyone has trauma. We all do. We all do, like nobody's not had trauma in their life. It's at different variance. How you're explaining this. oh, my gosh is amazing. It is so empowering. And I know this is gonna help. So many of our listeners are probably having the same aha moment in the way in which that you are describing this. I hope so. Because then hopefully people will be able to relax a little bit and not be so upset and so scared to open up this conversation because like what you just said, even if someone is upset, And they're upset because of something we said or did, number one, it's not our responsibility to read their mind. So it, they need to come to us and tell us, we don't have to ask. Now, this is where passive aggression comes into play. When people don't want to tell you what you did or said for different reasons, but they want you to ask. So they'll do things like slam doors, slam cabinets, they'll Huff and puff around. They'll stomp their feet, um, to try to manipulate you into asking them what's wrong. Now you can ask them if you want to, but you don't have to. You can just simply say, gosh, you seem to be having a rough. You know, and just move on about your business. And does that fall into the same category? The manipulation that you're speaking of when, when people are, are silencing or some people call it ghosting, or they're just, I'm done, I'm not speaking to that person anymore. Or does that fall under the gas lighting and the narcissist and all that as well? It depends on why someone is being silent. If someone is holding a grudge. If they have, if they have bitterness and resentment inside and they're like nursing it like Gollum nurses, the ring, like my precious. Okay. and they're holding onto it. Then that is a, that's a boundary issue because they, that's a huge boomerang that they're holding onto that they're not discussing with you, but they clearly still have a lot of feelings about it. So it's kind of spurting out in the form of passive aggression, but they're not speaking. Okay, that is unhealthy. However, when you set healthy boundary with someone regarding like a narcissist or Gaslight or something like that, you have the right to speak your words and be done. Not have not a comma at the end of your words, but a period. I've spoken. My words I'm done because what a narcissist or Gaslight will want you to do is they'll want to draw you into more conversations so they can talk you out of your opinions so they can get you maneuvered around to where they want you to be. This is what I call the hook. Uh, there's something, a noose as well. I'll explain that in just a minute, but, uh, if you imagine like a big metal rusty meat hook, You know, that you might find in a meat house, meat packing plant, that if you're engaged with someone like a narcissist or a Gaslight, and you have said your piece and you're done, but they keep trying to egg you on. They keep trying to say things to you that they know are gonna be hurtful to you that are, they purposefully are saying things to criticize you, to try to get you to bounce back, to defend yourself. Imagine when that's happening, that this big metal rusty meat hook is dangling right in front of you. My advice do not get on the hook because as soon as you begin to engage with them, you have jumped on that hook and they pull you in and they've got you. Mm-hmm do not do that. That's where your that's when your silence is healthy. when you're like, I've said what I need to say. I do not need to repeat myself because you do not have hearing issues. You do not have brain damage. You heard me, I'm not gonna repeat myself. There is a period after what I said, not a comma. And then you have the right to calmly walk away. Of course they're not gonna be happy at all, but that's not your problem because their emotions are in their yard. Right. Right. Now, what if you flipped that? what if you flip it and it's the Gaslight or the narcissist who was similar to maybe what you said earlier, like goes and is saying, you know, things about like, oh, I, that person's X, Y, and Z, and I'm, I'm just never speaking to them. I'm not speaking to them in knowing that they're causing habit. So almost like say that that person is, they know that, that you've got their number. So they're, they're now talking about you to keep you away from them. So they're gonna say, well, I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. I'm not gonna have you in my life. Did I explain that right? I think you did well, you've just received a big fat gift, right? It's like, okay, you don't want me in your life. That's awesome. Bye. right. I wanted to touch on that too, because I've talked with numerous clients lately and things like that have gone on in their lives. Mm-hmm and I've tried to express that. Well, that's a gift, but when you're in that situation and there's that codependency toxicity that's gone on and you've been manipulated to believe that you need that person for air mm-hmm they don't see the gift in that moment. You're right. You're right. That's why they need to build up other people. When I take, um, patients through clinical interview, one of the questions that I ask them is how many good friends do you have in your life? And this is important. I don't care if someone is single. If they're married, if I don't care any of that, you need to have good friends in your life. So. If number one, if, if, if you have a listener and they are already in this relationship and everything they do is with this one person, they don't ever do anything. They don't ever go on a girls weekends. They don't ever, you know, or vice versa or whatever they don't ever go out with their friends. Then start now I will say if you're in a, an abusive codependent relationship and you try. Formulate other relationships, then they're not going to like it, do it anyway. But like I said before, if someone is in a dangerous situation, then clearly they need to get special resources and help for that. But if someone is new and they're, they're listening to this and they haven't really gotten very deep into this narcissistic codependent relationship form, other relationships have other girlfriends. have other people on the side, they're there to support you so that when you need to set a boundary, when you need to be able to walk away, you're not alone. You are not alone. That is the lie that a Gaslight wants. Their I'll call it victim to believe that if you don't have me, you have no one. This is a lie, but relationships, many times they take nurture. They take intention. And so whether it's, you know, if you need to start with one person and telling them that you like, let's meet for coffee and just start learning about each other, getting close, formulating some other girl, girl relationships or something like that, that that will give you the strength. And the support to be able to pull away from codependent relationships. Right. I think that's excellent advice and that our listeners can definitely heed that and, and they can wrap their heads around that and that those are wonderful baby steps in addition to learning those healthy boundaries and how to start practicing those. So thank you for that. That was super helpful. You're welcome. So we are getting to this time in the show, Dana, where I asked this one question, are you ready? I don't know. Let's say yes Let's say yes and go somewhere light. what is one thing that no one knows about Dana. Oh, wow. Huh. Well, not many people know this. Um, there's a couple of things that I can pull to mind. One of them is, uh, I can say the alphabet and three languages, but that's kind of a boring thing. Um, I think that's pretty cool. um, I have been on a billboard before I. For what may I ask? Well, it was interesting. It was years and years ago and I was in, uh, my practicum for my degree. And it's a billboard for a psychiatric hospital. It was back in the eighties. It says before it all falls apart. And they, I, I still remember having to go in the room and they, I was in, gosh, my twenties. Yes. I was in my early mid twenties and they had to take makeup and really kind of make me look like older. Like I've really had a hard time, but, and, and it's on there. It was it's like I said, that was in the eighties, but I was so glad to go in. Into the room and be able to wash that all off my face. But the, the problem now is that the stuff doesn't wash off, like do when you're, when you're 22 and 23 years old. But yeah, I've been on a billboard. That is super cool. oh my goodness. That is super cool. How fun? Thank you. My gosh, as we are wrapping things up, what one piece of inspiration would you like to leave with our audience today? don't give up. Don't ever give up. You might feel like you are on your face in the floor and you, you might be on your face in the floor right now, but don't give up. You're not alone. Reach out, find someone else if you don't have what it takes right now, if you don't, if you think I don't have the energy to pull myself up off this floor. That's okay. Reach out. Find one person. You just need one person. You don't need 10. You don't need five in the beginning. You just need one, find one person and have them help you. And if you're, if you're one inch up off the floor better than you were yesterday, that's a victory. One inch is a victory. It kind of reminds me of that, uh, quote from Martin Luther king, Jr. If you can't fly, then run. If you can't run, then walk. If you can't walk then crawl. It doesn't matter how you go. As long as you keep moving forward. Well said, beautiful. Thank you for that. Dana share with our listeners, where can they connect with you? Find out more and maybe reach out and, uh, maybe have you as their therapist. Oh, well the therapy thing, I'm not sure I've got a pretty long waiting list right now, but you can go to Phoenix and flame.com. Now my I'm in the process of rehabbing. A lot of my social media. Right now, Phoenix inflamed by Dana S Scags is available on, on a Facebook. That's my Facebook page. Um, don't judge everything's under rehab. So, and I'm in the process of preparing an online course, an online boundaries course that will be made available very soon on Phoenix, inflam.com with possible, uh, speak engagements in the future and all kinds of stuff. So there's a lot going on, but yeah, go to Phoenix and flame.com. Perfect. Thank you so much, Dana. This has been a wealth of valuable information for all of our listeners around the world. Thank you so much for coming and sharing your story, your journey and your insights, and we're so excited for everything that's coming up for you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Jennifer so much for having me. You are so welcome. Well, as we say until next time. Thank you so much for tuning into another episode, please remember to rate, review and subscribe to empowered within with Jennifer Pilates. Your feedback is important. It helps me to connect with you and gives me insight into who you are and what you're enjoying about the show for today's show notes and discount codes from today's sponsor. Head over to Jennifer pilates.com until next time, may you live an empowered life from within.