Empowered Within with Jennifer Pilates

From Female Feminist to Playboy to Modern Day Magic Living with Carrie Pitzulo

August 31, 2022 Carrie Pitzulo Season 7 Episode 76
Empowered Within with Jennifer Pilates
From Female Feminist to Playboy to Modern Day Magic Living with Carrie Pitzulo
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Show Notes Transcript

Today's Episode: From Female Feminist to Playboy to Modern Day Magic Living with Carrie Pitzulo

Carrie is a professional tarot reader and the founder of Ancient Magic, Modern Living, a program of energetic, intuitive, and spiritual empowerment for women. She has a Ph.D. in American women’s history, and is the author of Bachelors and Bunnies: The Sexual History of Playboy. Carrie has a forthcoming book exploring mystical lessons on life, death, and grief in a dying world. Carrie can be seen on CNN personality and comedian W. Kamau Bell's new Showtime documentary, "We Need to Talk About Cosby," and the new A&E documentary, "The Secrets of Playboy."

In 2011, Carrie published her ground-breaking book on the history of Playboy magazine, Bachelors and Bunnies. Although she is a lifelong feminist, she discovered that in its heyday, Playboy was much more pro-woman than anyone had given it credit for (she was as surprised as anyone else!). Her book had a great impact on the ways in which we understand this important cultural institution of the late 20th century and she received international media attention - which continues! It seems we just can't get enough of Hugh Hefner.

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Welcome to empowered within a soul glinting transformational podcasts that will set your soul on fire through candid and inspiring conversations. Leading experts, celebrities, healers, and I share our journeys of how we've overcome challenges to living an empowered life from within I'm your host, Jennifer Pilates. Welcome to another episode of empowered within. Hi there and welcome to the show. I am excited to have with us today, Carrie Pezzullo. She is a professional tarot reader and the founder of ancient magic, modern living, a program of energetic, intuitive, and spiritual empowerment for women. She has a PhD in American's women history and as the author of bachelors and books. Sexual history of Playboy after spending a career generating and sharing intellectual knowledge of women's past, she shifted to applying that knowledge to women's mystical presence. Carrie has a forthcoming book exploring mystical lessons on life, death, and grief in a dying world. Carrie can be seen on CNN as well as Kamal Bell's new Showtime documentary. We need to talk about Crosby. Well, we need to talk about Carrie. Welcome to the show care. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, you are so welcome. Okay. So we've got to dive in to the hot topic in 2011, you published your groundbreaking book on the history of Playboy magazine, bachelors and bunnies. What was the driving force for writing that book saying, this is what I need to do now. How did that come up? Well, it's kind of a funny story because I was in graduate school at the time, working on my PhD and it was literally supposed to be a 30 page paper I wrote for one class. I had always been interested in the 1950s and, women's history, gender, sexuality, stuff like that. And I also loved pop culture. And so I had read something by Barbara Ehrenreich about masculinity in the fifties, and she discussed Playboy and I started to wonder, how did this, what a lot of people consider to be pornography. Consider it pornography at this point. But at the time I did, I thought, how did porn become mainstream in a time that so many of us think of as very conservative. So I just started digging. And as I said, this was just supposed to be a one semester paper, but the project ended up unfolding in so many ways that it became my dissertation and then it became a book. And now 10 years later, I'm still getting major international media requests to talk about Hugh Hefner and Playboy it's like, we just cannot get enough of this man. Right. Forever living on. And right now, currently there's the Annie documentary, the secrets of Playboy, which I know we discussed you were interviewed for. So how did that come about when, how did they approach you and how did that interview. Well, I think, I mean, certainly because I wrote this book, but it's not just the book itself. It's the argument that I make in the book. Which is what kind of made it, somewhat controversial, but also groundbreaking, at least for those people who actually care about Playboy. And that is, I argued that the magazine, particularly in the 50 sixties and early seventies kind of in that pre feminist era, the magazine was more. Woman friendly than we had ever given it credit for. And I know that that's going to sound completely ridiculous um, to a lot of listeners, especially if they're watching the AED documentary, but in the pages of the magazine, there's actually a lot that is offered that for women in that very conservative pre feminist time, I think was supportive of a more modern even. Free version of femininity and women's sexuality. So for people who are interested in Playboy, like all these documentarians and, and journalists and such they ended up finding my book and then they want to talk to me because I have this kind of unique positioning regarding the magazine and. Because of the very sort of serious academic take or way in which I was approaching my research, particularly because I'm a woman and because I'm a feminist woman, the company, when I was doing the research. Really wanted to support my project. And they gave me full access to the company, archives interviews all the way up to Hefner. They actually invited me to interview him. So it ended up just being. Much more than I ever anticipated. And because of all of that, I still get a lot of requests for interviews and things like that. Okay. So I had one question, but now you just opened up another volt of questions. So did you interviewed. I did, I did. They asked me to come to the mansion and interview him. You know, I was a grad student at the time and I didn't understand why they were giving me so much access. And once I got comfortable and realized they weren't going to take that access away, I said, why are you doing this? And one of the executive editors who's. Open the door for me, he said, because I was one of the first people, if not the first to really take the magazine seriously as a historical topic, as a sort of intellectual exploration. And because of that they, they just opened all of these doors and I happened to be doing this research. It was a little bit after I think it was the 50th 50th or 60th anniversary of the magazine. And of course, Hefner was getting, I can't do the math quickly enough in my head. Of course, Hafner was getting older and the company was really becoming invested in legacy at that point. So I think I also just really had good timing and that they wanted. This kind of treatment and this kind of historical documentation of the magazine. Right. Right. I I've read your take on, it was completely amazing because literally it was like thoughts I was having you're answering those thoughts, which starts from, you mentioned something about this really allowed the woman next door or your wife to feel. Beautiful and to have this new sense of self versus demeaning or this or that. And I thought that that was incredible. I thought, wow. I would, I don't know that I've ever thought about it. That. Right. You, you have to consider this from the perspective of that pre feminist era, right after the feminist movement changes our culture. It's a totally different story. And in my book, I don't challenge or disagree with the fact that it was a very sexist objectifying magazine, right? There is no doubt that Playboy has always prioritized white, straight male sexuality, and it's all for that. Right. So it's all to serve masculine. At least straight masculinity, but in the fifties and sixties, before the women's movement, you have to understand how harsh American culture was in its treatment of women's sexuality and how limited women were and how punished. Women were socially, personally if they didn't walk this very, very fine line of sexuality, which was almost exclusively married, minimal. That's it. And then there were a lot of constraints within that in terms of how you were supposed to be sexually. And so for portrayals of women's sexuality in the pop culture or even in sexually explicit materials, It was often defined as very dirty or degraded in mainstream Hollywood movies. For instance, when women characters would sort of transgress somehow sexually, they would be very, very harshly punished by the end of the film. Oftentimes they would be killed off, like we're talking like some really, really rigid rules around women's sexuality. And so what Playboy is doing in the fifties and earlier. Fifties and early sixties is saying that women are as sexual as men, women have a right to their sexuality just as men do. And that even quote, good girl. Have a right to sexual expression and that's, what's portrayed in the playmates, right. And those famous centerfolds, and even those which we can talk about them being sexist. We can talk about them being objectified, but they are also saying. That women shouldn't be judged for their sexual expression. And what was so interesting about the centerfolds is that they always had sort of biographical sketches that accompanied them. They have secondary photographs of the women in their supposedly real life, you know, working or going to school. In some of those photographs, they portrayed women sitting down, having dinner with their parents. And so what that said in this really conservative time was this girl's parents are okay with her sexuality. You shouldn't judge her if they certainly don't judge her. And you couldn't find that anywhere in mainstream popular culture at the time. It's a very nuanced argument. Right. And you have to sort of, you know, weave in all of these, you know? Yeah. But this, but also that to really understand what I'm arguing in the book, but I think the evidence is clear. I would agree with you. It's so interesting. And even as you're talking about, I sort of feel almost regressed in our society right now in the way that you're speaking as to how things were in some ways there's so much ridicule and this and that now it's almost like, wow, the way that you write about it and your argument for it, it's almost like, yeah, there, things were almost more accepting. However, we haven't gone behind the closed doors of the mansion yet, I definitely wouldn't say that American culture in the fifties was more accepting of women's sexuality. I would say that Playboy. To create a culture that became more accepting of women's sexuality later. And they're certainly not the only ones. Right, right, right. I wouldn't even say that they're the most important ones because I would never discount that the very hard work that feminists did in the sixties and seventies to really shift this culture. But you're absolutely right. That we have not come as far as we think we've come. No. Or at least I don't feel personally that we have I feel way more censored now than I ever have in my entire life. Excluding on the podcast. So let's, so now let's shift a little bit. So into the documentary, which you were interviewed for, however, not in, we do want to state that I finally caught like a full episode and being an empath. It was more than hard. I struggled immensely, you know, having grown up in that era. I mean, I grew up in the south. I was born in the seventies, grew up in the seventies, like it, there was something almost idolizing about Playboy. I mean, honestly, I can remember friends and I talking about wow, wouldn't it be amazing if you could be in it now I was like, shuttering watching the episode going. Oh my God. I mean, you don't, and it, and it goes back to everything in this world and everything today, you never know what is going on behind closed doors. And it's so easy to say, and you, you talk about this. Why don't you just leave very easy to say, not. And so, yeah. Would you touch base on your thoughts, your feelings on the documentary and now what's, I mean, should we say being exposed? I just it's. And because there's something else that you wrote too. And I wanted to mention, there was a thought that I had of like, wow, how did. How did this go on for so long? And you made a statement of how have we allowed this to go on for so long? Of course, like I would have never known, I mean, even working with celebrity clients, I've never heard anybody like Chitty chatty, Betty, about any of this. Of course. Now I could understand why. What is your, your thought and your take on this? Right. So, this documentary, the secrets of Playboy, I was interviewed for many hours with the director and producer while they were creating the film that doesn't appear on in any of the episodes. So a little bit behind the scenes there, but What this documentary series does, is really expose decades of allegations of sexual abuse and exploitation on the part of Hugh Hefner and so many people around him in the mansion. And just sort of in his personal life, a lot of women are stepping forward. Now he died a few years ago. And so a lot of this is coming to light now. And so one thing. I sort of want to emphasize, particularly regarding my book and my role in sort of creating a history of Playboy and how it relates to these accusations is I have always sort of insisted that we talk about the magazine as its own kind of institution Playboy in its heyday, in the sixties and early seventies was. W it really was a cultural institution. It was a wide ranging cultural. Um, So I think if you're not, if you're not familiar with that history, even though you may know of Hefner as sort of this icon, you may not realize how influential this magazine was it particularly in the sixties. So there was the magazine itself. Then there were the Playboy clubs, which were so popular all over the country and in other parts of the world. And then I see. That there is this other experience of Playboy, which was Hafner his personal life, all of his girlfriends, the mansion parties, et cetera. So there's, Hefner's personal life, which we've always known as sort of extravagant. And now with this Annie documentary in particular, we can understand as predatory maybe even two surprising degrees, more than many people even assumed. That is something I think we have to consider culturally historically as distinct related, but different than what was in the magazine, because Hefner always insisted that the kind of sexuality portrayed in the magazine was much more conservative than his own personal life. But so these are two different things and I don't get into his personal life and the mansion culture in my. Right. So, what I would say is. I think a lot of people are having the experience that you had in watching this. I've done some interviews with some women journalists in particular, as this has aired, and they have said the exact same thing that you have, that it is hard viscerally, hard to sit there and watch. This is a, I think a 10 episode series and it is just one horrifying story of abuse after another. And. They have asked the question, you know, how could this happen? What is it about Hefner? What is it about Playboy that allowed this to go on for so long? And I've as these articles that these journalists have interviewed before, as they've been published and I've seen which quotes of mine that they've used, it's kind of made me laugh because I feel like I'm a real Debbie downer because I just keep saying massaging. Exploitation of women, abusive women is some of the most fundamental fabric of our culture. Some of the most fundamental fabric. I think of the way the world works. I don't think that these are bad apples, right? I think that this is something that is common for people in power and the people in power are usually men. Right. We can, unfortunately, you know, as historians we're not supposed to speak and really sweeping generalities, but I think it's safe to say we can look definitely through American history. We can talk about the history of the Western world. We can talk about much of world history and see rampant exploitation. Like this, these are not exceptional cases. You have. Nour was a very, very wealthy, powerful man. And so. How this could go on for so long is because this is the way patriarchal culture works. So he might be an extreme example, but we, we know that sexual abuse happens at all levels of society, right in homes. You don't have to be a wealthy, powerful person. To be able to get away with this. Right. So we see it with Hugh Hefner. We see it with Harvey Weinstein. We see it with Jeffrey Epstein and his circle of abusers that the media hasn't even tried to reveal yet because they're all very powerful men. I was going to get into that because it's like fast forward. I mean, you know, fast forward, me and Carrie, you have the documentary and we have all of this things that have come out. Even this last month, there were so many politicians who were arrested on pedophilia and this and that and the other. And it's not any, it's not making it anywhere, but God bless you Hefner. We have an and documentary. Right, right, right, right. So. You know, and I'm saying it's about powerful men and it is, but the word we should be focusing on here is power. When, when an individual or a group of individuals have too much power, right. And the way the world has evolved is that that power has been in the hands of men. And, and so I think we just have to, you know, and I say I'm kind of a Debbie downer about this because when. You know, even the director of the documentary, when we were talking about this, when she was making it she talked about me too and how our culture is changing. And I said, I don't think our culture has changed that much. Right. We already think of the me too movement and past tense. Does that mean sexual abuse in Hollywood and elsewhere has ended? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. No, it hasn't ended. I mean, it's still, if you're looking at at different realms of news and not your. Regular TV news. We'll just say, there's real news. And then there's, whatever's on TV and there's so much that's going on, that people aren't aware of. And there's so much coming out right now in so many different areas. It's like, what's a distraction. What's a smokescreen. What are you supposed to look at? And it's just like, it's mind boggling. It's just mind boggling, but this definitely sets the stage in. It's interesting that you brought up the Epstein and all that. I thought about that in watching this, I thought, oh my gosh. When you think back and I watched something, it was another AME thing actually. And it goes back in, I mean, hundreds of years in history as to the hierarchy, the powerful the men. And there were there women there, Queens whomever by their sides that they would take the peasants then, and they would be theirs. And when you translate that down into history, just the titles and how someone looks and it's just changed ever so slightly, but it's still the same thing, right? Exactly. Exactly. Unfortunately, it was kind of abuse and exploitation is rampant. And I'd like to touch on that. The one statement that I talked about earlier, we kind of just glossed over when the thought is, is, well, if it's that so damn difficult, girlfriend leave it. Isn't that easy to leave, whether you're married to your husband or Hugh Hefner, there's gaslighting, there's narcissism. There's all sorts of things that go on. It's not that easy, right? That's just victim blaming. Right. Which is. An aspect of our culture that allows this kind of abuse to continue because it shifts blame onto the victim and away from the perpetrator. You know, and, you know, as we talked earlier about how much things have, or have not changed with the women's movement of the sixties and seventies, right? How similar is our culture to the 1950s? I think that is something that has not changed very much at all. And. There are so many psychological reasons, social reasons, financial reasons that victims are not able to leave abusive relationships. And just because we're talking about Hugh Hefner and whether it's Holly, Madison, you know, his girlfriend of the early two thousands or various other girlfriends, those dynamics are still in. And instead of focusing so much on saying, well, why didn't you just leave? Maybe we should put that energy into saying, why do so many perpetrators feel entitled to this kind of abuse? Correct. Right. Absolutely. A hundred percent. And it's across the board, like we're saying, look, I don't, we've taken this, this conversation because of what's the Annie documentary with Hugh Hefner, but this is alcoholism. This is drug abuse. This is emotional abuse. This is physical abuse. This is any one in that situation you meet or Holly, Madison, and it's not. Right. Right, right. And, and yeah, it's just more gaslighting. It's just war victims. Like if, if the, the people who criticize these women who are making these claims, whether it's in this circumstance or various other circumstances, right? Again, you have noticed somebody else, if the people who spent so much time asking the question, well, why didn't you just leave? Actually cared half that much about the abuse itself. I think our culture would really start to change an incredible, amazing shift that would involve so much less. For every human being far past loving thy neighbor, like quadrupling that. And it's honestly, it's what we need right now. Hundred percent in our world. Right. And with the me too movement, I mean, something that I personally experienced and I saw so many other women experiencing whether it was amongst friends or in Facebook comments or whatever, is that our notion of abuse changes. Right. what I mean by that is so many things that today we recognize as abuse that we recognize as assault that we recognize as rape 20, 30, 50, a hundred years ago, wouldn't have been considered those things at all. I mean, what we now know as marital. Was legal in this country until the 1970s. It's that's based on state law, the last state to outlaw marital rape, I think with South Carolina in the 1990s. So for most of American history, it was legal for a husband to rape his wife. Right. So that means our definitions of what kinds of violence are acceptable changes over. And even with the me too movement, I saw women struggling with, I personally struggled with sort of revisiting past experiences and saying, wait, what was that? I thought that guy was just being a jerk. And I was ju I'm just sort of used to being treated that way. Oh, maybe that was something more, maybe that was more than just a bad. Right. Oh, that was assault. Oh, that was rape. Right. Just in the last few years, we are evolving in our understanding of violence and assault and these power dynamics. And so you can see those women, you know, for, for the question of why didn't they just leave? They explain why they didn't just leave. Right. They were going through their own personal questioning or not questioning of the way they were being treated of what options they felt they had. The consequences that they felt they, that they might face if they did leave, if they did make these accusations sooner. Right? So they're answering these questions. We, we know that this is a part of the process, right? And I know that one of the gals in the documentary and she was someone that worked there, I want to call her Mary, but I could be wrong on the name. And she just said, and it was so powerful the way she said it. And she said, let's be very clear. If these were women, this would not have been happening. These were young girls and it was the way, I mean, even now I get goosebumps and I was like, wow, you know what? She's right. I mean, it's still, I'm sure. Some things there would be still some dynamics, but. Maybe to the extent of what my goodness, the allegations that are coming through this documentary are just, I mean, nothing short of horrific, you know, I just send blessings to each and every person that was involved and especially those people that work there too, because they, that was a different form of abuse for them. But it was so interesting the way that she said it, you know, and when you look at predator, you know, the word, the term that you use. Whether that is in your neighbor or, in the guy, the grocery store, Hugh Hefner, they're always looking on or looking for something that is less than so that they can feel a little bit better and that there are stronger and, and, and right, they are looking for victims, potential victims who they know are already disempowered. Right, who are already emotionally vulnerable, financially vulnerable, socially vulnerable. And that's how they can take advantage of them. Right. So they're all these as you said, young girls, Right. Very young women who maybe didn't have a lot of family support. Didn't have a reliable, financial support. Didn't have reliable education or career. They may have already had abuse in their background anyway. Right. So somebody already taught them to expect this kind of treatment. And, and so again, it's just really about power and. You know, maybe if we could shift the conversation to talk about the exploitation of disempowered people, right. However that works out children some women financially disempowered people, whatever, maybe it would be harder to victim blame. So. Yeah, I agree with you. So shifting a little bit, because that's a lot, that's like a huge, but it's a huge part of your life. And it's so important to guide us down this yellow brick road of your life, which is so amazing. When did you realize that you were going to be shifting and pivoting from your academic career to focus more on women's empowerment in your own spiritual life and intuitiveness? Well, it was an evolution. I had what I consider a spiritual awakening in 2013. I had always had these kinds of inclinations and curiosities and fascinations with spirit and mystery and all of that kind of stuff. But I didn't really, somehow, even though I think I'm a smart person, didn't put it together as a formal spiritual path. Until 2013. And then when I did, I was. Oh, my gosh, that's it that's me. That's what I've been looking for because I had literally been looking for a formal path for years. I had explored oh gosh, a bunch of different stuff. I, I was trying out Hindu chanting at one point I had gone to Quaker meetings at one point and Buddhism, like nothing seemed to fit. Like it was just sort of dabbled in all of these things. And I was like, that's not it. That's not it, that's not it. And my best friend and soul sister had been talking, you know, she was sort of moving in and out herself of witchcraft and goddess worship. And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. Whatever, whatever, whatever. And then one day I literally Googled. Wicca. I mean, I knew what it was, it wasn't unfamiliar to me, but I Googled it and I read the Wikipedia page, which sounds so silly, but I was like, oh, that's it. That's check, check, check, check. That's everything. Now I don't consider myself wicked. Now I was initiated. But I have more of sort of a hodgepodge kind of practice and belief system at this point. But I discovered witchcraft and I was like, that's. Okay. It's an official thing. And I, I just became obsessed at that point and it really changed my life and it didn't take long for me to start to think. I don't want to be in academia forever. I want to do something related to spirituality, but I had no idea what it was and it was sort of years. Of weaving in and out of these two things and slowly removing myself from academia, from full-time down to part-time and then it was just about a year, a year and a half ago. I finally quit teaching entirely and have been devoting myself. I'm a full-time. To my spiritual practice. And I've been creating online courses and intuitive development offering online meeting webinar type things and in goddess spirituality and actually just launched as a writing and creative consultant for spiritual entrepreneurs. So I It feels like a really good balance between my intellectual academic training, but also staying spiritually connected in a professional sense and working with other like-minded people. So it's been really fun. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a wonderful service because a lot of times, someone is so good. As being that practitioner, they don't have that business sense or the writing sense. They've got this amazing creativity about them, but they don't have the other side. And that's a wonderful asset to be able to help, so many that are in this arena right now, right? Yeah. I say that spirit is my passion and writing is my superpower. Right. So people have something they have to offer out there. You know, something's getting in the way that can express themselves in the way they want to or whatever, you know, so I'm working with that writing and editing and some, graphic creation and things like that. And it's working out really well because for the spiritual conscious, a lot of solo preneurs, right. So much on your shoulders. It's working out really well because I understand where they're coming from and I speak their language so they can just sort of dump some stuff on my plate and I understand what they're trying to do with it. So, it's, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah. It sounds like a lot of fun. So I wanted to ask you about this. You wrote that magic, energetic, intuitive, spiritual connection is life-changing and radically empowering. Can you give an example as to house. I think that fundamentally when we connect with this aspect of ourselves and, you know, they use these words interchangeably, like, right. Your spirit, your intuition, your energy connection to universe connection to the divine. I think it's all the same thing. I think that when you really anchor into that, when you give yourself permission to believe. And know that it's there and it is real, and that it is a true aspect. It's your true essence, right? It's who you are. I think that you develop a greater sense of trust in yourself, above all else, but you can then trust in the divine. You can trust in spirit guides or guardian angels or whatever this stuff means to you. However you interpret it. But ultimately at the core of all of that, I think. Is a trust in yourself. If you can connect with your intuition, if you can trust in the path, your soul has come here to take in this lifetime, you can feel more empowered to make decisions that are right for you. You can feel empowered as I have to step away from a successful career. Right. The I worked years to get right. I mean, getting a PhD, getting a full-time tenure track job is very, very hard. These days, those jobs are very hard to come by. I had the book, right? Like I was set for the rest of my life in that career, but I decided that my passion was moving in another direction and that's not something that I can personally ignore. And even when it's been hard though, Trusted that I'm moving in the direction I'm supposed to move. And the universe will support me in that. the, the, the key, right? The bridge between those things is then trusting in myself. Okay. I need to make this decision and I'm going to go for it because I have faith in all of these things. That's so empowering and I know. You and on your website, which is so fabulous by the way. I think it's just really great. You also talk a lot about how taro became so important to you and with your intuitiveness. And I loved because some people are probably like, oh, okay, because metaphysical, you know, intuitive and this and that, there's so much there. And that seemed to be one modality that you really found a path. Yeah. And I've actually been doing a lot with it lately. Taro, well, it's kind of like my original original modality. Since I was a kid, I was always interested in the metaphysical and supernatural and everything, but I would say learning taro which gosh, it's been probably 15, 16, 17 years now that I've been doing it. I think that that. We really opened the door for me to that intuitive connection. And again, learning to trust myself and it, and in developing that muscle. And I don't mind saying I've become very good at it and very like comfortable and confident with it. And I feel like tarot cards now are just like a really good friend and ally. And a lot of times, if life is just getting crazy and I'm. Not falling off of my path, but not enacting my path or practice as much as I would like. Terros that the main thing I always do. And so I sort of know that it's always there and that connection is always there and you don't need cards. You don't need anything to connect with that that energy. But for me, that's what I always returned to. What would you say to someone who. Is where you were and they have this life and maybe they have the, the husband and the dog and the cat and the kids and this job. And they're just like, I, that's not for me. And I'm being called and I don't know what to do. What advice do you give to them to make it okay. To sort of embark on their next. Well, of course you can think about it as taking one baby step at a time, or you can think of it as taking a wild leap, right? So if you have the resources to take the leap and you want to go for it, then go for it. Many people can't just tomorrow quit their jobs and, you know, pursue their spirituality full-time but there are always those baby steps. And I was taking those baby steps for years. If you make that connection right back to our previous point, if you connect with your intuition and learn to trust it, it will become much easier. All you have to know is the next best step. I haven't known where I was going through. Most of this, I have been pursuing spiritual entrepreneurship. Four or five or six years now. And there've been different versions of that. Most of the time, I never knew where I was going next. So I just sort of, thought, well, what am I thinking of right now? Let me try this. And I tried that and some things worked and some things didn't and some things I lost interest in, and I did not know what was going to come after that, but I have had the. But the next step would be revealed. And even as I mentioned, this writing and creative consulting, this is an idea I've had maybe in the last six weeks. Like, I don't think I had this idea at Christmas time. That's phenomenal. I was feeling like what I was doing. I mean, it was, it was going somewhere. I was creating a community. I was creating important connections with clients and with students, but I was starting to feel like it was running out of steam a little bit. Again, that connection to energy, it was feeling like the energy wasn't quite as there, the way it had been in the past. And I had no idea what the next idea was going to be. And I don't even remember how it happened. I was just like, wait, I'm a writer, duh, I'm really good at writing. And I was like, wait a minute. Other spiritual entrepreneurs need support in this way. And it has been so fun and so exciting. And, and there's a lot of energy there for me. So that's what I'm following right now. You just have to have that faith and take one step at a time. I agree with you and what an incredible compatibility to be able to take two things that you're so passionate about and bring them together. And I think the way in which you have weaved in and out, it's almost like, the universe had to set you up with one, to be successful in the other. And sometimes I don't want people to think that like it's one or the other. There's very few people that I know that are just one or the other, most people I know are doing something like this, both because I think that as being in the spiritual realm, we're being called to bring light into areas that maybe couldn't do it in a spiritual way. So to speak, you know, in a traditional, like you're gonna walk in with, you know, your Sage and that this and that, that like, that's not going to work, but we're walking in as the beautiful light that you are in spreading it that way. Right. That how we get more and more, the seeds dropping and the everything, flowing throughout, whether it's your workplace or even the grocery store at this point. I mean, heck we needed everywhere. Right? So. Yeah, I think it's all about that face and giving yourself permission to unfold without knowing what you're unfolding. And I think that that's huge. And it's wonderful to just go with the flow. It's when we fight, especially now, it's important for everyone to remember that our world is shifting so much, the vibration is changing so much and we just gotta be able to go with it. And what you're doing today may not be what you're doing tomorrow and that's okay. There is a plan. Some, there is a plan for your, for us all out there. Right. And this is making, speaking of taro. This is making me think of, for arterial readers out there. The major Arcana card number zero. And if you don't know this card it's the sort of the first of the unfolding of the major story that is told in the taro, and it shows an image of a man with this happy look on his face. I'm about to step off of a cliff and the energy of this card is total fake. In your path and when this card comes up for people, I explain that this man about to step off this cliff is so trusting. So trusting in where he's going. So trusting in this step, he's about to take that it doesn't even occur to him that he could fall off that cliff. It doesn't even, I love those. Those are when you don't you agree in those moments that when you don't think about it, that that's when like the magic happens. Yes. Yes. Don't look down. Just keep that there and just go every time, every time it's when you try to plan out the nitty gritty or when there's other people that come into your mind that you can trip up. Right, right. Yeah, staying true to self. I love it. Well, Carrie, we are getting to this time in the show where I asked this one question, are you ready? Yes. All right. What is one thing that no one knows about Carrie? Oh, goodness. What is one? Okay. I'm going to be such a complete dork. Because, because usually anything like these personality questions that people ask somehow always leads me to talking about Bruce Springsteen, who is my spirit animal, but everybody knows that about me. If you know me, you know, I love your Springsteen, but so that may makes me think of something that nobody knows because I'm too, I've been too embarrassed to say it. As much as I love brutal. Like family. I have only recently discovered Brandi Carlisle and I've become obsessed with her. And I've was trying to figure out why has she affected me so much? And I feel like somehow she reflects the true essence of me that I didn't even know existed. So somehow every time I connect with Brandy, I feel like I'm connecting with myself. She is. So magical in such a goddess. I can't even stand it. She, every day at this point, I mean, her energy is just amazing. I adore her beyond and I can't believe I didn't discover her so long ago, but she's like, my daughter knows to call her my wife, your wife, Brandy. I love it. Oh my gosh. I'm going to play her music today. I'm so excited. I haven't talked about her, heard her in for so long. It's those were the days when, I feel the vibration of music was good. Oh, she's got a new album out. She is. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow I don't know what it is, but she, she is. Love it. Well, we, well, we gotta like, get a meet and greet going here. Oh, Brandy. If you're listening, please, I'll give you all the taro readings you want. Yeah. Carol readings. Yes. Well, Carrie, will you share with our listeners where they can best find you and connect? Well, you can certainly find me on Facebook or on my website at ancient magic, modern living, especially if you'd like a remote taro reading. And my new writing and creative stuff is at nerd, which consulting.com I'm and nerd, which consulting on Instagram and Facebook. Very cool. I love it, Carrie. Thank you so much for being here today for sharing. Your journey and your insights. You're so empowering. And I just know that you're going to do so good for our spiritual community, with your writing. I'm so excited for you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's a lot of fun. Yes, definitely. All right. Well, as we say until next time, Thank you so much for tuning into another episode, please remember to rate, review and subscribe to empowered within with Jennifer Pilates. Your feedback is important. It helps me to connect with you and gives me insight into who you are and what you're enjoying about the show for today's show notes and discount codes from today's spot. Head over to Jennifer dot com until next time, may you live an empowered life from within